Nigerian foremost activist, Aisha Yesufu has been vocal about a number of issues around nation building,human rights and politics in the country. Co-convener of the Bring Back our Girls Movement,Yesufu led a group of protesters to occupy the National Assembly in 2014 after the abduction of 200 Chibok girls in Borno State,North East Nigeria.She has been at the frontlines of activism ever since.She was popular for her valiant actions during the nationwide EndSars protest against police brutality in 2020.She was among BBC’s 100 Women in 2020. She was also included in a list of the Top 100 Most Influential Africans by New African magazine in 2020.
In this conversation with Omolola Afolabi,she spoke extensively on her Citizens’ Agenda Document, her support for Labour Party Presidential Candidate, Peter Obi, appraisal of other frontline candidates,among other issues.
I saw the Citizens’ Rights agenda on Twitter so I got very curious and I figured it is something that needs to be talked about and needs a lot of media attention so basically I want you to just tell us about that. What does it mean? What it ultimately means for the next general elections and how Nigerians are responding to it.
It’s the Citizens’ Agenda Document. So basically what it means is that it’s time for the citizens to put together their expectations from a government that would give them good governance and accountability and transparency. Most times, citizens wait for politicians and political parties to bring out their manifesto and they just tell us what they want to do but sometimes they don’t get to do it. So with the Citizens Agenda Document, what I am looking at is the fact that can citizens come together and compile the things that they expect from whoever it is, that gets into office at whatever level and they need them to do. These are the things that we want.
During the election period, hold them to a place where you are either signing the document or you are coming to an agreement with them so that at the end of the day, everyone is clear about their demands. This is to avoid the regular practice of politicians making promises and lapping over serious issues and getting away with them. It’s like a citizen’s charter so that you’ll see that we’ll sign it together and have a document that is down there to say these are the agreements that we have and when they get into power, you’ll put them unto those terms that you have already signed.
So is it a sort of social media campaign or is there any kind of physical interaction with Nigerians to fill in these documents and make their demands known?
It started from social media because it’s much easier to get people’s attention and gather people together via social media these days so that’s where we started from. But it’s definitely going beyond social media. Right now, they are working on a website where people can come in and fill in their forms and pick one, two, or three things that are the top priority for them and we are meeting with Nigerians. There are Nigerians that have already volunteered for every part of the issue that is talked about; be it economy, be it security or the issue of civil service, education and of that. We want to have a team of Nigerians ready to come together; citizens and experts and be able to bring out a policy document on that particular sector. There are Nigerians who have volunteered and a lot of people have sent in their demands. They’ve said they are going to volunteer, they are going to be part of it. So we are working on just having everything down together. So it’s not just gonna be on social media, it’s going to be off social media too. And at the same time also, getting other organisations, but it’s sort of like a big thing. It’s not something that one person can do or the other and getting organisations that would buy in and we’ll all come together and collaborate and work on it.
So what will this mean for the 2023 elections? What are the prospects? We understand that Nigerians have a lot of demands. So if there was no election, for instance, will this document, will it still be a thing?
If there was no election, the document can be, but it will not be as effective as it can be now if properly managed by the citizens. Though when there’s no election, the person has already gotten into office, and the government is already entrenched. Most times, they have no incentive. There is because what we have right now is the political parties moving their candidates. So it’s like an interview process they are going to with the Nigerian citizens as the prospective bosses. So this document will simply say, tell us what you are going to do and how you will do it. We have this for you, are you going to be part of this and we would sort of have an agreement on it because now they want something? They want your votes and so it’s much easier for you to sit them down and say let’s get this done. For example, by the time the elections start, all the candidates have to be moving around Nigeria or their states or wherever level they are contesting for, meeting with the people. Guess what happens, when they get into office, that doesn’t happen as much so that’s why doing this during the election is much more effective than after the election.
The most important thing also is Nigerians having ownership of the whole governance process. What they have currently is that citizens do not have ownership. They do not even realize that they are part of the governance process. That governance is made up of demand and supply. So why the people that are voted in are supplying, the people that voted you into office are demanding. And so that’s the part that citizens, most people, we just stay back. So with this kind of document, what it’s doing is that it’s giving the citizens an active role in governance to say your own is just not to vote and go home. Do we actually vote, this is what you need to do. This is what we put forth that we want and this is what you need to monitor and ensure it’s being done. And if it’s not being done, it’s now within your jurisdiction and your duty and your responsibility to make demands that ensure that such thing gets done. So it puts the citizens in that active mode where they too are participating in governance.
So is this campaign self-funded?
Yes, it is.
Okay. Alright.My next question is about the political apathy or lack of political involvement of Nigerians in their own affairs. I mean what do you… just as you have said that a lot of people do not know about the demand and supply part of governance. So if you want to make an appraisal of how non participatory or uninvolved Nigerians are in their affairs, how would you sum it up?
Oh well, it would all depend. If you had asked me this questions probably a year ago, I would say maybe 30% but now I would say, well we’re looking at 60%, maybe 60, 70% or more of 60%. What we have had is that we have had an increased interest in governance.
Hitherto, Nigerians didn’t really understand the relations between governance and their lives and many people don’t bother. They were selfish enough to just feel that things happen to other people but not to them. In spite of the insecurity, bad governance and corruption. In spite of the fact that system is not working;a lot of people as long as they can provide for their own personal comfort stopped bothering about governance and about the things that happen in the country until the bad governance and insecurity began to eat at everybody. So people now know that yes, it affects them because you can be in the city but when the terrorists are done with the people in the villages, they’ll come for the people in the city and in the last that few months, they’ll say Abuja has been shaken in the issue of terrorism; in terms of the Kuje prison break, the Birnin Gwari attacks and all of that.Being brought to the people has made people realise that they are potential victims. Most importantly, October 2020, the EndSARS protest. The EndSARS protest has shifted the paradigm. So there has been a paradigm shift in Nigeria after the EndSARS protest, especially among the youth. In terms of the older generation, well, we had the military era, they knew what the military era was and they knew not to take democracy for granted but a lot of the youth, do not know what the military era is. Most of them were either born during democracy or they were quite young when democracy started. So they didn’t really have that firsthand experience of people fighting to actually get us this democracy so they have never really been bothered about it but with the EndSARS protest, they saw the killings at the Lekki tollgate. They saw firsthand, how vicious and callous a government can be and that has prompted them to be really invested in the electoral process because they have realised that the electoral process is what brings in the leadership and the leadership is what will affect your life, whether you are minding your business, governance will affect you where you are. So we have seen an increased interest in politics and in the electoral process by the Nigerian Youth and in seeing the way they pick their PVCs; the way they are going about the campaigns and how they are not allowing themselves to get distracted by the many things that are going on.
How important is 2023 for Nigerians?
2023 is very important. The 2023 election is an election for survival. It is a mark-over election for Nigeria. Nigeria has come to a place where it is almost dying. It’s at the last stage where if something is not done to it, it might get into a place where it can never be revived again. So there are certain elections where it doesn’t really matter who it is that you put into office because things are going,more or less okay. Even if somebody comes in and spends 4 or 8 years without really drastically affecting things, that’s not where we are in Nigeria today. The country has been governed so badly, Nigeria is almost a failed state, some even called it a failed state. Things have gravely worsened that we need transformational and disruptive leadership. Good disruption. We need leadership with empathy; competence and patriotism. We need leadership that is ready with a leader that is going to be a servant leader that would take us take us off from the brink that Nigeria is on currently and be able to walk on a lot of the reforms that are needed .So you need a competence and a candidate who is ready to gather competent people around and be able to get the work done.
So the 2023 election is a very critical election. Moreso why it is so critical is the fact that the incumbent has already finished his full term. He can’t run again and so we have good people who are running and most likely it’s very difficult to dislodge an incumbent even though it has been done before in Nigeria but whoever is going now is likely going to be the person who will spend the 8 years. It is the candidate whom we are going to give the 8 years of Nigeria to; to be in the legislative arm of government; in the states of assembly; to be in charge of the helms of affairs of the states that we have that are going to be participating in this election. So it’s such a critical election especially with the way things are. The insecurity has worsened so much. There is so much distraught in the nation and the unity has been fragmented.So the election is a major issue especially for the citizens of Nigeria, not necessary for the politicians because for them it’s election season so they come and go for them. So it’s majorly for the people of the federal republic of Nigeria.
For an heterogeneous country like Nigeria the fact that a lot of factors inform the choice of candidates for Nigerians; factors like tribe religion and others. So this 2023 election season and the preceding months, what do you think is the major driving force for the choice of a candidate for Nigerians?
There are different people and different sets. There are some people that religion is still the major driving force for them so it doesn’t matter whoever it is as long as it is their own, they are going to vote for their person. As long as it is their religion, they’re gonna vote for that person and there are some people who think that for them it’s for the country and I think more of that is increasing.
The driving force ordinarily should be about competence. Who are the people who are most competent to do the needful? And not just about competence but who has empathy for the people. Who would be ready to give Nigeria their all and ensure that every citizen gets to the level that they are and not just the ones who feel okay at being at a particular top level and every other person is suffering.What we’ve had in the last 8 years, to a lot of people is the realisation that it really doesn’t matter whether it’s your own that’s in office, bad governance will still affect you and I’ll take example of the present President Muhammadu Buhari who is a Katsina State indigene and for a whole 6 years in office, his state has worsened and it’s one of the most insecure states in the country and so people there, even with the fact that it’s their own that is the president.it hasn’t transcended to anything good for them in terms of leadership or good governance and security. So that one, is some of the things we expect but human nature is sort of fickle you never can say what will move them but the poverty, insecurity, the bad governance, unemployment, the lack of good quality education, the lack of good healthcare services; they do not care about your colour, your religion, your tribe, your gender, your age. It affects everybody indiscriminately and so it is very important for people when making choices to put sentiments aside and politics is not a love affair. You don’t need to like somebody in it, it’s about the interest. Who are the people that will give Nigeria the best? Those are the people we should be looking for whether we like them. Whether we share the same religious beliefs or not. Or if we are from the same ethnicity or not. Are they able to give us the best in the country? And are they able to do the work that would move Nigeria to where it’s supposed to be.
As a Nigerian and informed at that and the fact that you’ve been on the frontlines for a long time now. We just figured that you would be able to give a kind of appropriate appraisal of the frontline candidate and of course a lot of Nigerians would be listening to this conversation and it might be a trigger to pick which of their candidates would be rightful for the presidency come next year? So the frontline candidates that are contesting, would be able to make an assessment of each of them ma?
Well, I would say that would not be so fair since I have already pitched my support for a candidate. So I might be biased in my appraisal of the other candidates in the way that you want it. Because you want somebody who probably hasn’t pitched support for any candidates and they would be able to dispatch indiscriminately and look at everyone. For me it’s Peter Obi, it’s Peter Obi that I think is most competent to be able to lead among the presidential candidates. We have to take the lead not just for the presidential election and to get there and be able to harness a competent team that will work together. If I look at Tinubu, he doesn’t have what it takes at this moment, both physically and mentally, you see he is struggling and the state that Nigeria is right now, that is not what we want. People are talking about what he has done in the past and everything.I’m 48 years old. I suffer from arthritis, i have suffered from arthritis over 30 years and what I could do in my teenage years and my 20s, I could literally run and do a lot of things, I can’t do now and for me to say that I am gonna put myself there because I could do them before even though physically, I’m unable to do them, that would be a wrong thing. It’s just like me saying I want to replace Tobi Amusan at the 100m hurdles because I used to run before. It’s not gonna work that way so that’s the case. On the issue of Atiku, Atiku has not shown himself to, that’s my own opinion, that was what I have said to you that I might be biased. I might not be the right person to do this. But for my own,why I have made those choices, Atiku has not shown himself to be a statesman, to be somebody who we know would have everybody’s back.You’ve seen a number of things that he has done in his own way. Let’s take let’s the issue of the girl that was killed, that was murdered for blasphemy. Then he would do a tweet and then pull it down. So that’s not the kind of person we want in this country. We want someone who irrespective of their religion, you should be able to unify everybody,offer leadership and do the right thing. Nigeria at this stage needs beyond the kind of leadership we’ve had. We need transformational leadership and for me I have seen that it’s Peter Obi that will be able to give that but like I said to you earlier, that’s my personal opinion because I have already given my support to somebody
Could you talk briefly on the strongest reasons why you are fully in support of Peter Obi?
Yes absolutely. One of the things that, for me, that is topmost is empathy. So of all the candidates that I have seen, I see Peter Obi with the most empathy. Empathy in a sense, feeling with the people, so for me, that’s very key because one of the things that I have realised is empathy goes a long way because when you have a feeling for the people, you feel that you want to put them in a position you are in. You would give your all to be able to give them that. We have so much that that’s one.
The other thing is about track record.He has been in governor in Anambra and we have seen that in a country where people get into office and they are ready to loot money, to loot oil and take it all out. We’ve seen him being a governor and not having to touch the coffers of the state. We have seen a situation where governors are collecting as much as 100s of billions from their states in terms of their pension. Some of them even go on to the Senate and collect double salaries and everything. He hasn’t done that. So that sort of shows character. He has also been somebody who has been shrewd, be frugal in terms of government spending and one of the problems that we have had in Nigeria is the fact that there has been too much spending. Governors have too much spending on governance. He is one person that would be able to tackle that hands-on and able to cut the cost of governance.There are also other things in terms of working with people, in terms of a team. I see him as somebody that would be able to rally Nigerians around; both in Nigeria and in the diaspora and in getting a team of the best hands to work together. It’s not that Peter Obi has a magic wand to sweep things over. No, it’s going to be hard work, smart work, it’s going to be a lot of work and all of us will have to be part of that work. Our business as citizens is to hold him accountable and to ensure we criticize every move whenever he does the wrong thing and ensure we support him whenever he does the right thing. It’s a work that all of us will have to do and for me and the main thing is that the citizens win for the first time. We have had a series of elections where it is always about people who have looted our country, perpetuating themselves or their stooges in office. It is always about them, they think they have the money to buy all the votes. It is time for Nigerians to be ones to decide the ones who need them.
When Peter Obi gets into the office by the grace of God, he’s not going to think that it’s his money that brought him into the office or the godfathers or godmothers that brought him. He definitely would know that it was citizens that came together to bring him to work for the citizens and if he refuses to work for the citizens, the citizen know what to do is to go to the polls in the next elections and ensure that he is voted out
For the Citizens’ agenda document, it doesn’t matter whoever the candidate is,it’s for all the candidates at all levels whether it’s Basically what citizens are demanding is security. They want to be secure. They are looking at education, the public education the way it is. The ASUU issue, it’s also on top of the demands they’re making; economic improvements is also one of the things people are making demands on. We have demands on power, in terms of employment because there’s a lot of unemployment around and there are people who are asking for reform in the civil service, in the manner in which recruitment is made into the security agencies and all of that. Those are some of the demands citizens are making.These are things that the government ordinarily should do for the people but unfortunately, they have not been doing it for Nigerians and Nigerians are left to be making basic demands when we should be making sophisticated demands. I mean people in other parts of the world, in other countries are making different demands, they are making demands in terms of care of the environment and stuff like that; in terms of what are you doing about what you are doing about space exploration and a lot of those things. Nigerians have not even been allowed to get those levels of making such big demands. We are still at the level of asking for basic things like security, education, jobs and technology is also one of some of the demands the people have also made. These are some of the basic things people are asking for.
Okay, thank you for the clarification. I was going to ask you about the ASUU strike.
I would be able to make comments on that just as I am a citizen, not as an expert. The issue of ASUU is really a thing. I can believe that 30 years later, I’m still hearing about ASUU. The first time I knew of the ASUU strike was when I got to the university that was 1992 and this is 2022. That’s 30 years later we are still talking about the issue of the ASUU strike. As a student,I lost about 3 years to ASUU strikes and the university is closed down and you still find out that people are still going through the same thing. We have a situation whereby the people who were also affected by ASUU are now in a position and are continuing the whole thing. The educational system in Nigeria for me is a bit screwed up. We have a process whereby the government is not seriously focused on primary and secondary education. Primary and secondary education should be the priority of the government. There should be good quality education, if we do not ensure that we have quality public education, we are not going to grow as a nation because a lot of people are going to be thrown behind. Right now what we have is that access to good quality education is dependent on the state of the economy.
The final two questions are going to be like icebreakers about controversies on social media and your hijab. So have you ever been criticised for wearing it?
Oh yes absolutely. I have always been. I started wearing a hijab in 1992 so that’s 30 years ago and it was my own personal decision that I made even though my family members were not happy about it. At that time, hijabs were not very common. It was not very common, the covering of the head and everything. People were like why are you covering yourself when you are not married, who is going to marry you and stuff like that but I stood my ground because it was my own conviction, it was something that I wanted to do. It was after I started university that I started covering myself up. And of course over the years, absolutely, wearing the hijab, especially in this part of the world is really not an easy thing. There’s a lot of discrimination, there’s a lot of discrimination against the hijab. People don’t want to work where you are told, ‘ oh you have to remove your scarf, even scarf. As of ten or fifteen years ago, even the banks discriminated against people who covered their hair. If you wanted to work in the Nigerian banking sector, you had to drop your hijab.
So there were a lot of places where people sort of like blocked down on you and I’ll give you examples, when we started the Bring Back Our Girls, a lot of other members of the movement were complaining about how the fact that Nigerians were treating them especially when they saw them BBOG badge or wearing the BBOG t-shirt and I wanted to say that I am not getting that feeling. Why? I don’t know why you people are getting it. It took a very long time before I realised that I was not getting it because that was the way I was treated with my hijab. I mean some people would look at you like you are not educated because you are wearing the hijab. I remember I think I’m 2014 or 2015, a reporter, was surprised that I could speak English. So there’s a lot of discrimination, but right now, with the fact that I have a more public profile, so people get to know me before I even go to a place so I don’t get too much of the, “ I think you are not intelligent” or” I think you are not educated” or “you can’t speak English” kind of a thing but of course, there are a lot. Even on social media. These people would say, Oh drop it , remove that thing, you’re wearing …you are suffocating yourself. You are wearing a hijab, it’s covering your brain and all those sorts of comments but hey it is what it is people do what they want to do. For me, it’s always about standing your ground.
Oh thank you so much. About the controversies on social media, do you want to say more about it?
Well for me, I just will just add that people should know that certain opinions are an opportunity to learn about other people’s perspectives and they should not be bothered about other people insulting them. Insults and praises are the same things, they are people’s opinions about you. If you are not angry when they praise you or pray for you, why should you be angry when they curse you or insult you? So that’s my view about social media trolling and bullying.